Email from Jill regarding the 2nd LP

[Ars_Nova_Chris]

Got an email from Jill Gibson this morning regarding the 2nd LP, here's what she had to say...

"Hi Chris,

I finally got back from Mexico and I will try to answer your questions now..by paragraph:

1. There's no agreements about me talking or not talking about my experience in the M&P's. I got a smallish lump sum for going into the M&P's. I was lied to about being entitled to my royalties so I never got those.

2. I sang 10 songs on the 2nd album. Since there were only 2 I didn't sing, it's easier to remember those. Dancing in the Street was one, and off hand I forget the other. Michelle and I never sang together on the album. It's highly unlikely money was spent to change anything after I left. I, also, hear my voice on the 10 songs.

3. We did do the background vocals together as a group.

4. As far as I know, Dancing in the Street was done before she left the group. The finished album had some sort of pre-release while I was in the group, so Dancing in the Street must have been finished before she left. I sang Words of Love and yes, I sang the NO. It's hard to remember the second song I didn't sing because during the time I was doing the album, I was also rehearsing all the songs, including the 1st album, for touring.

5. I would love to check out the work you've done extracting voice. I did sing Trip, Stumble, and Fall. I couldn't download anything while in Mexico and now I don't see an attachment on your email. Can you send it again?

I hope this was helpful for you.

All the best, Jill"

[dunhill]

I know that the session information exists for these recording sessions. I would tend to rely on that information more than on memories. Experience has taught me that the older I get, the more my memory plays tricks on me.

- Charles

[Ars_Nova_Chris]

Charles, have you and/or Richard seen said session sheets? I see no reason not to give Jill the benefit of the doubt. Certainly she would know if that's her voice, for instance, doing the high-pitched 'no' in Words of Love? I've been using Adobe Auditions 'Center Channel Extractor' to remove the music and just leave the vocals for the songs on the album to varying degrees of success and sending them to Jill for her to verify if that's her voice on each track.

If it's alright with Richard, I'll upload the results somewhere and link them so everyone can make their own call on who's singing what.

[dunhill]

No disrespect to Jill, Chris. I believe her voice is probably somewhere on the album, but just where is the question.

I have not seen the session sheets, but Richard and Greg Russo have. Richard has written about this before and I believe he has indicated that Michelle did re-record material for the album after she rejoined the group. If I'm wrong, I hope Richard will weigh in on this and correct me.

- Charles

[Ars_Nova_Chris]

I think a little insight into how these tracks were actually recorded will show that Jill's voice could not have been removed from anything that she originally recorded without in fact re-recording the entire song, all parts, from scratch, which would simply not have been a financially viable option for Dunhill.

Let's start with this post from Steve Hoffman (scroll down thread to post #16):

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showt ... amas+mixes

Now, according to Jill and all other accounts I have read and photographs I have seen of the group in the studio, the backing vocals were recorded with all of them singing at the same time. As soon as this track was bounced, it would become "locked" in the mix, so to speak, with no way to "erase" any particular voice from the track.

Remember that Western only had a 4-track recorder at the time. By the time a lead vocal, strings/horns, additional instrumental and vocal overdubs were added, the backing vocals probably wouldn't have been on a dedicated track. Even if they were, all of them would still have to re-record all of their backing vocals in order to get rid of Jill's. If the backing vocals were not on a dedicated track by the end of the recording of a particular song, which they most likely were not, then they would not only have had to re-record everyone's backing vocals, but also re-record any instruments and other vocals that were on the same track as well. Either way, I just can't see this as being a viable option financially for a record company. Furthermore, do you really think that people in the industry at the time thought enough of the average record buyer to think they would even be able to tell the difference between Jill and Michelle's voices, especially when mixed in with everything else?

The very best that they could have done after Michelle came back into the group would be to have her sing additional parts on top of Jill's parts, but Jill's parts would still be there. But why even invest the additional time and money in that? Many of us have been listening to those records for years and still can't tell exactly who's singing what part, so how would they have justified the expense when most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference anyway.

Short of any convincing evidence to the contrary (session sheets, audio/video of the whole group with Michelle re-recording the parts, etc...) the only logical answer is that Jill's voice is in fact on every track that she originally recorded, or that virtually the entire album was scrapped and re-recorded with Michelle, which I've never heard anybody claim.

[dunhill]

Chris,

I admire your dedication to this subject and all of the work you've put into it. I'm not sure anyone has put this much effort into this before. I'll stick to my guns on my belief that Jill is on the album, but not quite as extensively as she remembers. I'll not be too disappointed if proven wrong. It won't be the first time and certainly not the last either.

- Charles

[Rbcsoup]

Great discussion guys. I fall squarely in between you in that I think Chris, you are right, it is doubtful that Jill was "sanitized" off the album, given the technology of the day. But I will add to the confusion that Denny said, "they scrubbed off Jill's vocals and put on Michelle's"---or something along those lines. I think Michelle would say, not unlike Jill, that SHE is on all the tracks. I will ask her the next time I have a chance. The best person to ask this question would be Lou or Bones Howe. To further complicate the 'muddiness' which Steve Hoffman made mention of----I think more than 2 songs were already laid down with Michelle's vocals. So if your theory holds, Chris then you'd have backing vocals with Michelle, John, Denny and Cass. Then add Jill. Then add Michelle again.

I do have the Session sheets and will check them and get back to y'all in a couple of days. My stuff is so disorganized. In our next house my wife has promised me a music/Mamas and Papas corner or room!

RBC

[Rbcsoup]

PS--I've always thought Jill was quite audible in Look Through My Window.

[dunhill]

Thanks, Richard. I always value your input highly.

- Charles

[dunhill]

I'm listening to Barry McGuire's This Precious Time which got me to thinking. If Barry's lead vocal could be successfully scrubbed (well, almost) from his version of Califonia Dreamin' and replaced with the M's & P's, then I think it's quite possible that Jill's voice could have been scrubbed from the 2nd album. Just something to think about.